A Ground for Debate
Recently, I had a friend comment about the antics of Westboro Baptist Church. Understandably, he had been offended by them protesting a funeral of a high school friend of ours. Unfortunately, the tide of the conversation began to group all Christians together in with this extremist legalism. I decided to try and curb some of the accusations and straighten out some of the misunderstandings. The main dialogue was between myself and a man named Joe. For privacy reasons, I have removed the names and links from the post, but the thread is as follows. (Be warned: Strong language present)
I hope so but they still need to be banished from America, its so damn sick and disrespectful for them to do that to any funeral
I just don't understand why people can't just keep their beliefs to themselves. Do they really think that picketing is going to make people respect their cause? Idiots...- nobody is going to respect their cause, God wouldnt want them to do that and they tried to picket at Ben's funeral too but Bordentown was strong in numbers that day
Ryan Jackson They are not Christ followers... What's pitiful is that they will have to give an account to Christ one day on why they perverted His gospel and slandered His name... I wouldn't want to be in their shoes...
Values based on 1st century, uneducated, barbaric animals. I guarantee you don't know one person alive today who has such a narrow, ignorant world view as those who wrote that nonsense that these morons follow. PERIOD.- Ryan Jackson @Joe I don't mean any disrespect, but I find your comment funny. We find common ground that Westboro are a bunch of morons, however they fully misrepresent those first century values and cannot be grouped as one. Your argument is delightful because it shows the paradox of what our 21st century educators lead us to believe; that we are animals, descended from a mindless process of time and chance, void of purpose, meaning, and morality. As for the barbarism, it was that same existential, social Darwinian thinking that had borne us two world wars, justified slavery, and bred holocausts. So yes, as I share your detest for people pointing a bony religious finger, they by no means represent the religion they ascribe to themselves. The baby must not be thrown out with the bathwater.
- this hate group doesn't deserve citizenship to America, they have no respect to God or to the friends and families of their lost loved ones this might sound unchristian but Someone needs to kick their asses and straighten them out or just kick them out of here
- Ryan. Hate to inform you we ARE animals. Evolution is as much a fact as gravity. As far as justified slavery, read your bible.
- Btw, dogma.... Of any kind has cause more wars than any thing else. If you want to deny MOUNTAINS of evidence and rely on supernatural BS. I feel perfectly comfortable dismissing you nonsense
- Ryan Jackson You've been reading too much Dawkins and Hitchens sir. Atheistic regimes in the 20th century alone have caused more bloodshed than all so called "religious" wars put together (Yes, including the crusades, inquisition, reformation, and Salem witch trials.) There is something deeply flawed within humanity, but I assure you it wasn't caused by people following the example of Christ. I understand your dismissal only upon the grounds that you can supply New Testament evidence where Jesus condones hating on and killing people that don't agree with you. If not I will assume that your dismissal is purely on the grounds of a bias by personal presupposition, not fact.
Moreover, the evidence against evolution is far greater than the proof. As a rationalist I choose to believe that which is believable, if you want to interpret the "facts" (genetic entropy, missing fossil record, irreducible complexity, etc.) and fit them into a theory that is neither testable, repeatable, observable, or falsifiable than you must concede that you too have faith in the supernatural.
I might add that evolution is an attempt at giving an account of the transition between species, how a fish became a rat, how a dinosaur became a bird, etc... However, Darwin himself never could give an account for the emergence of life itself. Despite extensive research we still have no clue as to how the first cell appeared, let alone how the universe was able to come into existence from nothing.
But, as a skeptic, I suppose if you can come up with some more convincing explanations for human compassion, the emergence of the cell, and the existence of the universe from nothing, I'm willing to concede my point of view on that one... - I have nothing to say to a complete moron who chooses to believe in a virgin birth, talking snakes, the resurrection, Noah's ark, etc etc. OVER evolution. You my friend need to look through a microscope or educate yourself. And if you get your morales from the bible then you have bigger problems than I could ever speak to. I've read the bible. I WAS a Christian. Up until I reached the age of reason. You've been brain washed and are to weak minded to realize it.
- Laughable how little you actually know about evolution. As far as compassion. I suppose you believe in keeping slaves. And stoning woman to death or do you just use your morales to weed out that nonsense and choose to only believe the good bits. Don't EVER talk to me about morales with the bible as your reference point. Complete, nonsense!!
Amen! Lol- How strong are your convictions and what do you believe Joe? Lmao!
- I believe in using two separate standards when forming my convictions. If it concerns science I insist it can be "testable, repeatable, observable or falsifiable". BUT when it concerns religion.... Well I can just pick and choose what I want to believe (there by proving religion doesn't teach us morales) AND I don't need any evidence, it doesn't have to be testable, repeatable, observable or falsifiable. Ok, I go now and make up my own facts about history that aliens with my rediculous
- Beliefs.
ANDREW,,,, SEE WHAT YOU STARTED A HOLY/UNHOLY WAR!!! DANG YOUUUUU!!!!- Lmao Joe =]
- Ryan Jackson Joe, Considering you have yet to take any teachings of Christ and demonstrate how they influenced the early church toward barbarism, cruelty, and murder, I will dismiss your previous critique as unjust. In fact, I am thankful that you raise these questions about stoning and slavery (By the way, at no time should I appear as speaking down to you. I respect you as a fellow man who has every right to believe what he wants, but also has a right to know what is true and what is empty rhetoric.) Nevertheless, adultery was an offense punishable by death according to Levitical law. Consider for a moment what law is and what it does. Law is a standard and the punishment of transgression of that law is incentive not to transgress it, right? Why do you think there are such steep copyright infringement penalties? Clearly, to deter anyone from stealing someone's work. Now let me ask a personal question, would you want anyone to steal your wife, or the mother of your children running out on both you and them? I don't know about you, but as a child of a family that did erode under a spouse's unfaithfulness, I wish there were some tangible punishments that would have deterred such pain and suffering for so many family members. Unless, you advocate such suffering.
Now I must note, that there is an account in John 8 where a woman was dragged into the streets before Jesus. The men of the village caught her in adultery and with stones in hand tried to trip Jesus up into taking part in the murder. I'm sure you know what He said. He said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." All of the men dropped their weapons and as they cleared he asked "Woman, where are those who condemn you?" She said "There are none who condemn me" when Jesus responds, "Neither do I." Therefore, the whole stoning women thing really backfires when used against Christians whose Lord was willing to be crucified even for the sins of a guilty woman to pay the penalty of her transgression of the law of the land.
Slavery on the other hand must be understood. Every ancient nation endorsed slavery. Thus you find it in all ancient literature. From the Egyptians, to the Greeks, and Romans, no one is exempt from this issue. So the fact that slavery appears in the Bible doesn't mean God funded the African slave trade two centuries ago. It is quite the opposite, however, as any student of scripture will note that slaves were protected by mandates of God. They were to be treated with respect, and dignity like members of the family. In fact, every seven years slaves were to be released and allowed to choose whether or not they wanted to return to be part of families (Deuteronomy 15) Individuals were able to sell themselves into slavery if they didn't have work or loved ones. The slavery you have in mind is not compatible with Biblical slavery.
In addition, it was Christians that championed the cessation of the slave trade in Britain. It was William Wilberforce acting under the convictions that God had created men with personal value and equality that drove his lifelong endeavor to end the slave trade. As a matter opposed to this fact, Charles Darwin published his first book titled, "On the Origin of Species," but that wasn't his full title, it was actually "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life." It was generally held at the time, that the Caucasian race was superior to the aborigine Australians and the Africans. I understand that people often cite this passage from "The Descent of Man" to support their claims that Darwin was a racist, but I am citing it to show that the evolutionary theory, in regard to higher more developed races, sets the stage for such crimes against humanity as the holocaust and ethnic cleansing while giving grounds for justification of racial prejudice. "The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as present between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla." (*1)
Evolutionists took this concept so far as to forcibly exhibit a man by the name of Ota Benga in the Bronx Zoo with the monkeys. He was their "proof" of a lesser species within the human race. Here is an article that appeared in the New York Times in 1906 "We do not quite understand all the emotion which others are expressing in the matter ... It is absurd to make moan over the imagined humiliation and degradation Benga is suffering. The pygmies ... are very low in the human scale, and the suggestion that Benga should be in a school instead of a cage ignores the high probability that school would be a place ... from which he could draw no advantage whatever. The idea that men are all much alike except as they have had or lacked opportunities for getting an education out of books is now far out of date."(*2) It is undeniable that even the sacred books of evolutionists are guilty of what you accuse the Bible.
Now that any confusion has been cleared, I hope that you will not continue to accuse others as being narrow minded. I will concede that the congregants of Westboro are not following any Christianity as taught by Christ or the early church. Please do not be so quick to judge me either, as Andrew will attest, I was not always a Christian. Only within recent years have I accepted Christ's salvation as a gift. Prior to these few years, I was intensely narrow minded; a womanizing, conceited, drunk who found evolution a reasonable justification for the lifestyle I was living. You may not be any of those things, but I would have you know, that I have done my homework, as do most other Christians. Although, I cannot speak for all of us, I do know that some of us take seriously what Jesus said, "that you may know the truth and the truth shall set you free." With that said, I challenge myself daily to understand what I believe because if it is all just hearsay and legends than it's not true. Fortunately, the historicity of the Scriptures can be verified, no one has ever exhumed Christ's bones from anywhere, and it was by the power of the gospel that my whole life was radically changed by no effort of my own; Logical consistency, empirical adequacy, and experiential relevance all convergent in Christ, "The way, the truth, and the life."
**As for the evolution stuff... That's not a religious argument, Christians go either way, I personally cannot find the concrete science to call it fact... Don't take my word for it, this guy is much more refined than me. David Berlinski ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S89IskZI740
1. Darwin, Charles. The Descent of Man. (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZvsHAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA193...) Page 193.
2. A Wikipedia Entry on Ota Benga. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ota_Benga)
www.youtube.com
The Incorrigible Dr. Berlinski. Philosopher and scientist David Berlinski (autho...See More - I couldn't read you long rambling last post Ryan. I was busy praying to the invisible man in the sky. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ENLIGHTENING ME!!. I decided to quit taking my medication for my skin cancer and pray to my lord Jesus Christ to cure me of the cancer that he created. How could I have been so stupid to rely on the hundreds of the most intelligent, educated scientist in the world for my information when I could simply read the word of god written by those who taught me the the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around the earth? So excuse me I have to go beat my slaves and stone my wife to death because I just discovered that bitch wasn't a virgin!!!
Thank you so much Ryan for showing me the light!! - PS. I have a piece of cutting edge technology that I'd like to sell you.... It's called a wheel barrow!!
It's amazing!!!
BWAHAAHAAAHAA !!! - Ryan Jackson I'm sorry Joe that you cannot keep an open mind. Please be careful in the future not to fall into your own accusations of narrow-mindedness. If it is true that you do have skin cancer, I pray you will recover fully to know the goodness of God. Once again, I mean no disrespect, but your argument has failed you and therefore you lack the authority of making the claims that you have made. God bless you.
- Get link
- X
- Other Apps
That's not a debate.
ReplyDelete